-Tim Scott
[apfn-1] Re: Debt Conspiracy...Economic SOLUTIONS???
Tue Jun 14, 2005 16:06
64.140.158.45
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [apfn-1] Re: Debt Conspiracy...Economic SOLUTIONS???
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tim Scott law_wins@yahoo.com
To: apfn-1@yahoogroups.com
I don't really want to engage in borderline argument on this topic, as you and Mitch have, but I'll just clerify my quick points:
Gold is indeed finite. The idea behind substance-backing is within the finiteness of the substance. Sure, more can be mined...but only so much more. The Earth is only so big. It's limited amount is exactly what enables the currency's stability, and exactly what makes the FRN so unstable. I can back this up with my own research at the law library, and besides...it just makes sense.
We're not really in actual "disagreement" on this, you just seem to be coming at it from a slightly different angle. When you mention paper, you are as well, in a roundabout way, confirming my point that it is renewable.
Gold...is not renewable. It may be if we lived a million years each.
Govt solution: Full reserves out the window; hello fractionals. And now with computers, even that is in question.
My reference to fiat was misinterpreted on your end. I was not attempting to define it, I was only referencing it. All "law" is colored. One of the few that is not is that of gravity. My mention of fiat was referring to its colorability. (I like to try to keep things short in written discussion, as I don't have the time for longer pieces. Misunderstandings are expected.)
I agree with Mitch on the Executive Order fiasco. I also did a paper on THIS topic in college. The invention of the EO was entirely anti Checks and Balances, and has always been quite unAmerican. They even teach the kids in college these days that the EO "acts as law." And none of the kids know enough to question that notion.
-Tim
tawny tawny_wulf@yahoo.com wrote:
I am no expert on this subject and would appreciate correction on any points in which I am in error; but I think it is not the finitude so to speak of the supply of gold (for its supply is not finite, not yet anyway, as it is still being mined) that makes it the substance of choice historically as a money, but rather the fact that it takes labor to produce it - it is a real substance with a marketplace value that is constant or, to be more accurate, which alters slowly in relation to its available supply relative to the available supply of goods and services, and thus, which resists manipulation. It is a commodity with intrinsic value, its value being as a store of value and as a medium of exchange. For these reasons and uses, historically, it is perceived as having value.
Paper has very low intrinsic value, and paper money costs virtually nothing in time or labor to produce, ditto digital money. Trading it for things of value - things in limited supply that it takes labor to produce - is akin to trading things of value (that you have worked to possess) for rocks or sand or water or any other cheap and abundantly available substance. Such a trade makes no sense. To make it seem to have sense, the paper can be made 'special' and the supply of this 'special paper' can be controlled. But the control is artificial and not real. And the control is in the hands of ... someone.
Because paper money is dirt cheap and has very little intrinsic value, the amount in circulation can be quickly and drastically, or if you want a more neutral term, then significantly, altered - increased or decreased. The ones who do the altering under our present system (which the private bankers worked long and hard to achieve, and if you think they worked this long and hard in order to be able to to exercise their hard-won powers in the public interest, then I do have a bridge to sell you) are the private bankers who are the Fed, the central bank.
If one alters the amount in circulation, or available, of any commodity in demand, one alters its value, as per the law of supply and demand: increase the amount in circulation and you lower its value. With regard to fiat money, this is called inflation. Decrease the amount in circulation or the supply in the marketplace relative to the goods and services it is traded or bartered for, and you raise its value relative to those goods and services (whose supply in the marketplace usually cannot be quickly altered/manipulated). When the amount of money in circulation in the marketplace decreases and it becomes scarcer relative to the products for which it is bartered/traded, the effect or result is called deflation or recession/depression.
Our laws now give the private bankers who constitute the Fed total control, with no accountability to anyone, over the amount of paper or digital FRNs in circulation. This is truly a huge power, exercised in private, with (by law) no scrutiny or accountability. These guys are on their honor to act in the public interest, because they certainly could use this power in such a way as to enrich themselves and all those in govt whom they wish to reward (or punish). These private bankers can create inflation or recession as it pleases them. Either way, they know which spigot to place their hats under to get the flow of real wealth resulting from their manipulations of the intrinsically worthless paper money for which real wealth is traded in the marketplace. They are on their honor to 'do the right thing' and to exercise this huge power in the public interest rather than in their own interest, to increase their wealth, power, and influence. Obviously they can use their foreknowledge of which way the economy will turn (because they are doing the turning), towards recession or inflation, to enrich themselves and whomever they choose to favor with the insider information. To be explicit, if the currency is going to inflate, get the hell out of it and into tangibles; if it is going to deflate, relative to commodities or other currencies, then get into it.
It goes without saying that this is an immense power that the private bankers who are the Fed have. A couple of quotations are very relevant here, both so well-known as to be virtual truisms; Lord Acton - "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely: most 'great' men are bad men." Thomas Jefferson - "Therefore let us hear no more of the goodness of men, but rather bind them with the chains of the Constitution."
Re-read that post by Maund and tell me how you think the private bankers who ARE the Fed have been using their power.
Here is my definition of central banks, and I think it a very good practical definition of how this very great power over the amount in circulation of the fiat currency is in fact and historically without exception used: CENTRAL BANKS ARE MECHANISMS FOR THE COVERT TRANSFER OF WEALTH, FROM THE SELLERS OF LABOR AND THOSE WHOSE WEALTH, IF ANY, IS DENOMENATED IN THE INTRINSICALLY WORTHLESS FIAT CURRENCY, TO THE BUYERS OF LABOR AND THOSE WHOSE WEALTH IS DENOMINATED IN TANGIBLE WEALTH, SUCH AS GOLD, REAL ESTATE, FACTORIES, ETC. ( in other words, from labor, to capital).
In theory, perhaps, this great power, this monopoly on the issuance of 'money' and credit, could be used for good, as is commented below. But given the laws of human nature, one of which is that people always, if they can, use power to enrich themselves at the expense of the public, it never has been and never will be. We must be realists if we are to create social/political/economic institutions that work in the pubic interest. Therefore - as the founding fathers told us so long ago - we need an economic system and a monetary unit that are manipulation-proof or at least -resistant. And that is the money mandated by the Constitution in Article I, Section 10 - no state shall make any thing but gold or silver coin a tender in payment of debt.
In answer to the question of how recession/depression was possible in the 1800s, I would say that it was possible to manipulate the currency then - it was just more difficult and the effects created were less profound and tended to be more local. For an excellent monetary history of the United States, that could answer your question in much greater detail, read THE CASE FOR GOLD by Ron Paul ( mah hero) and Lewis Lehrman.
btw 'fiat' does not mean 'renewable resource' but 'by order of law.' Only by order of law would people trade their valuable and finite/scarce labor ( the only wealth most of us possess) for something easily attainable and in abundant supply, such as sand, rocks, water .... or paper. For that is like trading dollars, real dollars, for pennnies. Commodity-based money, such as that based upon agricultural products, can work; but historically, money based on the commodity of specie, precious metals, is the money of choice because of its many demonstrated and time-proven advantages over every other type of money.
Have we been had? We have. Can we do anything about it? I think we can... knowledge is power. I think every scam like every story has a beginning, a middle ... and an end. We live in interesting times... could the end be nigh? This is the consumation devoutly to be wished and that upon which our posterity depend. So all of you/us who care and will work to achieve a just society and a just economic unit and system are really important at this point in time.
No changes in our monetary unit/system can be made without public/ education/ awareness/support/demand. So education is the answer. This stuff seems complex but so did reading and writing and algebra and musical notation when we began learning them. This info is teachable/learnable.
======================
Tim Scott law_wins@yahoo.com wrote:
It is an interesting idea, but would follow closely with the rag paper/cotten used now, which is a renewable resource, hence the fiat.
The idea behind gold was it's finite-ness. It therefore hopefully eliminated inflations/deflations/recessions/depressions by default. The value was fixed. Mr. Greenscam would've had no say in it's inflow/outflow manipulations.
I did a report on this in college and I wish I could go into more detail on the hows and whys a supposed "depression" occurred in the 1800's while having a backed currency...I simply don't know the details of the history enough, but wish I did. If anyone does know, I'm all ears.
No use in repeating history if ever we ARE fortunate enough to get the currency backed properly again.
In the meantime, I like you idea, if only we didn't live in this fear/greed world. Keep in mind that the Fed DOES have the ability to be a terrific system that would work for everyone, with interest eliminated and backing...but they choose not to.
-Tim Scott law_wins@yahoo.com
Educating people in all areas of effective Civil
and Criminal Remedy via proper Administrative Process.
Well versed in Traffic, IRS, Attorney Harrassment, Law Suits,
Debt Collection Harrassment, and Protection of Rights.
__________________________________________________
APFN-1 YahooGroups:
Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apfn-1/join
Unsubscribe: apfn-1-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
APFN MSG BOARD:
`In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.'
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/Indices/149495.html
===============
RE FYI....
Secrets of the Federal Reserve
HISTORICAL BEGINNINGS . . . . THE FEDERAL RESERVE" Secrets of the Federal Reserve and the London Connection ... OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SECRETS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE Download in ZIP
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
2. Federal Reserve ~ The Enemy Of America
FEDERAL RESERVE ~ THE ENEMY OF AMERICA Federal Reserve It is not federal, and it does not have any reserves ... Warburg, drafter of the Federal Reserve Act) "Permit me to issue and
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve2.htm
3. What's Money
solutions.htm The Federal Reserve Is A privately Owned Corporation ... CALLED 'The Federal Reserve System' http://www. ... com/principal---federal-reserve-system.html Central
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/money.htm
4. A Phone Call To The Fed
the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank. This is an account ... country own the Federal Reserve System? MR. SUPINSKI - We are ... CALLER - Is the Federal Reserve a Corporation? MR. SUPINSKI
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/money2.htm
5. Bank of Credit and Commerce International.
well-connected former federal bank regulators, and former and ... local, state and federal legislators. Wittingly or not, these ... AGENCIES CONCERNING BCCI. Federal prosecutors in Tampa handling
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/BCCI.htm
6. The Federal Reserve Is A privately Owned Corporation
The Federal Reserve Is A PRIVATELY OWNED Corporation By Thomas ... scheme of a Federal Reserve Bank with its commercial-paper ... have about the Federal Reserve Bank (FED). I spent much
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/fed_reserve.htm
7. THE UNITED STATES IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY
THE UNITED STATES IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY EXTORTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN! A DOCUMENTARY REVIEW OF CHARTERS AND TREATIES August 17, 1996 An introduction by the "Informer" This is
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/bcolony.htm
8. Rep. Traficant Charged With Bribery
CLEVELAND (AP) - A federal grand jury on Friday indicted ... dog'' against any federal charge him. Anticipating the announcement ... Janet Reno and federal prosecutors in Ohio. He also
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/traficant.htm
9. The Way It Is
the privately-owned Federal Reserve) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "None are so helplessly ... away from federal officers and local
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/banks.htm
10. The Real Story of the Money-Control Over America
hands of the Federal Congress. They believed that ALL ... money. Since the Federal Congress was the only legislative ... Control to the Federal Reserve Instead of the Constitutional
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/billions.htm
================================================
"We need everybody's brain power, we need solutions!"
"WE ARE APT TO SHUT OUR EYES AGAINST A PAINFUL TRUTH...
FOR MY PART, I AM WILLING TO KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH;
TO KNOW THE WORST; AND TO PROVIDE FOR IT."
---- Patrick Henry
Subject: Re: [apfn-1] Re: Debt Conspiracy...Economic SOLUTIONS???
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tim Scott law_wins@yahoo.com
To: apfn-1@yahoogroups.com
I don't really want to engage in borderline argument on this topic, as you and Mitch have, but I'll just clerify my quick points:
Gold is indeed finite. The idea behind substance-backing is within the finiteness of the substance. Sure, more can be mined...but only so much more. The Earth is only so big. It's limited amount is exactly what enables the currency's stability, and exactly what makes the FRN so unstable. I can back this up with my own research at the law library, and besides...it just makes sense.
We're not really in actual "disagreement" on this, you just seem to be coming at it from a slightly different angle. When you mention paper, you are as well, in a roundabout way, confirming my point that it is renewable.
Gold...is not renewable. It may be if we lived a million years each.
Govt solution: Full reserves out the window; hello fractionals. And now with computers, even that is in question.
My reference to fiat was misinterpreted on your end. I was not attempting to define it, I was only referencing it. All "law" is colored. One of the few that is not is that of gravity. My mention of fiat was referring to its colorability. (I like to try to keep things short in written discussion, as I don't have the time for longer pieces. Misunderstandings are expected.)
I agree with Mitch on the Executive Order fiasco. I also did a paper on THIS topic in college. The invention of the EO was entirely anti Checks and Balances, and has always been quite unAmerican. They even teach the kids in college these days that the EO "acts as law." And none of the kids know enough to question that notion.
-Tim
tawny tawny_wulf@yahoo.com wrote:
I am no expert on this subject and would appreciate correction on any points in which I am in error; but I think it is not the finitude so to speak of the supply of gold (for its supply is not finite, not yet anyway, as it is still being mined) that makes it the substance of choice historically as a money, but rather the fact that it takes labor to produce it - it is a real substance with a marketplace value that is constant or, to be more accurate, which alters slowly in relation to its available supply relative to the available supply of goods and services, and thus, which resists manipulation. It is a commodity with intrinsic value, its value being as a store of value and as a medium of exchange. For these reasons and uses, historically, it is perceived as having value.
Paper has very low intrinsic value, and paper money costs virtually nothing in time or labor to produce, ditto digital money. Trading it for things of value - things in limited supply that it takes labor to produce - is akin to trading things of value (that you have worked to possess) for rocks or sand or water or any other cheap and abundantly available substance. Such a trade makes no sense. To make it seem to have sense, the paper can be made 'special' and the supply of this 'special paper' can be controlled. But the control is artificial and not real. And the control is in the hands of ... someone.
Because paper money is dirt cheap and has very little intrinsic value, the amount in circulation can be quickly and drastically, or if you want a more neutral term, then significantly, altered - increased or decreased. The ones who do the altering under our present system (which the private bankers worked long and hard to achieve, and if you think they worked this long and hard in order to be able to to exercise their hard-won powers in the public interest, then I do have a bridge to sell you) are the private bankers who are the Fed, the central bank.
If one alters the amount in circulation, or available, of any commodity in demand, one alters its value, as per the law of supply and demand: increase the amount in circulation and you lower its value. With regard to fiat money, this is called inflation. Decrease the amount in circulation or the supply in the marketplace relative to the goods and services it is traded or bartered for, and you raise its value relative to those goods and services (whose supply in the marketplace usually cannot be quickly altered/manipulated). When the amount of money in circulation in the marketplace decreases and it becomes scarcer relative to the products for which it is bartered/traded, the effect or result is called deflation or recession/depression.
Our laws now give the private bankers who constitute the Fed total control, with no accountability to anyone, over the amount of paper or digital FRNs in circulation. This is truly a huge power, exercised in private, with (by law) no scrutiny or accountability. These guys are on their honor to act in the public interest, because they certainly could use this power in such a way as to enrich themselves and all those in govt whom they wish to reward (or punish). These private bankers can create inflation or recession as it pleases them. Either way, they know which spigot to place their hats under to get the flow of real wealth resulting from their manipulations of the intrinsically worthless paper money for which real wealth is traded in the marketplace. They are on their honor to 'do the right thing' and to exercise this huge power in the public interest rather than in their own interest, to increase their wealth, power, and influence. Obviously they can use their foreknowledge of which way the economy will turn (because they are doing the turning), towards recession or inflation, to enrich themselves and whomever they choose to favor with the insider information. To be explicit, if the currency is going to inflate, get the hell out of it and into tangibles; if it is going to deflate, relative to commodities or other currencies, then get into it.
It goes without saying that this is an immense power that the private bankers who are the Fed have. A couple of quotations are very relevant here, both so well-known as to be virtual truisms; Lord Acton - "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely: most 'great' men are bad men." Thomas Jefferson - "Therefore let us hear no more of the goodness of men, but rather bind them with the chains of the Constitution."
Re-read that post by Maund and tell me how you think the private bankers who ARE the Fed have been using their power.
Here is my definition of central banks, and I think it a very good practical definition of how this very great power over the amount in circulation of the fiat currency is in fact and historically without exception used: CENTRAL BANKS ARE MECHANISMS FOR THE COVERT TRANSFER OF WEALTH, FROM THE SELLERS OF LABOR AND THOSE WHOSE WEALTH, IF ANY, IS DENOMENATED IN THE INTRINSICALLY WORTHLESS FIAT CURRENCY, TO THE BUYERS OF LABOR AND THOSE WHOSE WEALTH IS DENOMINATED IN TANGIBLE WEALTH, SUCH AS GOLD, REAL ESTATE, FACTORIES, ETC. ( in other words, from labor, to capital).
In theory, perhaps, this great power, this monopoly on the issuance of 'money' and credit, could be used for good, as is commented below. But given the laws of human nature, one of which is that people always, if they can, use power to enrich themselves at the expense of the public, it never has been and never will be. We must be realists if we are to create social/political/economic institutions that work in the pubic interest. Therefore - as the founding fathers told us so long ago - we need an economic system and a monetary unit that are manipulation-proof or at least -resistant. And that is the money mandated by the Constitution in Article I, Section 10 - no state shall make any thing but gold or silver coin a tender in payment of debt.
In answer to the question of how recession/depression was possible in the 1800s, I would say that it was possible to manipulate the currency then - it was just more difficult and the effects created were less profound and tended to be more local. For an excellent monetary history of the United States, that could answer your question in much greater detail, read THE CASE FOR GOLD by Ron Paul ( mah hero) and Lewis Lehrman.
btw 'fiat' does not mean 'renewable resource' but 'by order of law.' Only by order of law would people trade their valuable and finite/scarce labor ( the only wealth most of us possess) for something easily attainable and in abundant supply, such as sand, rocks, water .... or paper. For that is like trading dollars, real dollars, for pennnies. Commodity-based money, such as that based upon agricultural products, can work; but historically, money based on the commodity of specie, precious metals, is the money of choice because of its many demonstrated and time-proven advantages over every other type of money.
Have we been had? We have. Can we do anything about it? I think we can... knowledge is power. I think every scam like every story has a beginning, a middle ... and an end. We live in interesting times... could the end be nigh? This is the consumation devoutly to be wished and that upon which our posterity depend. So all of you/us who care and will work to achieve a just society and a just economic unit and system are really important at this point in time.
No changes in our monetary unit/system can be made without public/ education/ awareness/support/demand. So education is the answer. This stuff seems complex but so did reading and writing and algebra and musical notation when we began learning them. This info is teachable/learnable.
======================
Tim Scott law_wins@yahoo.com wrote:
It is an interesting idea, but would follow closely with the rag paper/cotten used now, which is a renewable resource, hence the fiat.
The idea behind gold was it's finite-ness. It therefore hopefully eliminated inflations/deflations/recessions/depressions by default. The value was fixed. Mr. Greenscam would've had no say in it's inflow/outflow manipulations.
I did a report on this in college and I wish I could go into more detail on the hows and whys a supposed "depression" occurred in the 1800's while having a backed currency...I simply don't know the details of the history enough, but wish I did. If anyone does know, I'm all ears.
No use in repeating history if ever we ARE fortunate enough to get the currency backed properly again.
In the meantime, I like you idea, if only we didn't live in this fear/greed world. Keep in mind that the Fed DOES have the ability to be a terrific system that would work for everyone, with interest eliminated and backing...but they choose not to.
-Tim Scott law_wins@yahoo.com
Educating people in all areas of effective Civil
and Criminal Remedy via proper Administrative Process.
Well versed in Traffic, IRS, Attorney Harrassment, Law Suits,
Debt Collection Harrassment, and Protection of Rights.
__________________________________________________
APFN-1 YahooGroups:
Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apfn-1/join
Unsubscribe: apfn-1-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
APFN MSG BOARD:
`In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.'
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/Indices/149495.html
===============
RE FYI....
Secrets of the Federal Reserve
HISTORICAL BEGINNINGS . . . . THE FEDERAL RESERVE" Secrets of the Federal Reserve and the London Connection ... OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SECRETS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE Download in ZIP
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
2. Federal Reserve ~ The Enemy Of America
FEDERAL RESERVE ~ THE ENEMY OF AMERICA Federal Reserve It is not federal, and it does not have any reserves ... Warburg, drafter of the Federal Reserve Act) "Permit me to issue and
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve2.htm
3. What's Money
solutions.htm The Federal Reserve Is A privately Owned Corporation ... CALLED 'The Federal Reserve System' http://www. ... com/principal---federal-reserve-system.html Central
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/money.htm
4. A Phone Call To The Fed
the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank. This is an account ... country own the Federal Reserve System? MR. SUPINSKI - We are ... CALLER - Is the Federal Reserve a Corporation? MR. SUPINSKI
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/money2.htm
5. Bank of Credit and Commerce International.
well-connected former federal bank regulators, and former and ... local, state and federal legislators. Wittingly or not, these ... AGENCIES CONCERNING BCCI. Federal prosecutors in Tampa handling
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/BCCI.htm
6. The Federal Reserve Is A privately Owned Corporation
The Federal Reserve Is A PRIVATELY OWNED Corporation By Thomas ... scheme of a Federal Reserve Bank with its commercial-paper ... have about the Federal Reserve Bank (FED). I spent much
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/fed_reserve.htm
7. THE UNITED STATES IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY
THE UNITED STATES IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY EXTORTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN! A DOCUMENTARY REVIEW OF CHARTERS AND TREATIES August 17, 1996 An introduction by the "Informer" This is
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/bcolony.htm
8. Rep. Traficant Charged With Bribery
CLEVELAND (AP) - A federal grand jury on Friday indicted ... dog'' against any federal charge him. Anticipating the announcement ... Janet Reno and federal prosecutors in Ohio. He also
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/traficant.htm
9. The Way It Is
the privately-owned Federal Reserve) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "None are so helplessly ... away from federal officers and local
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/banks.htm
10. The Real Story of the Money-Control Over America
hands of the Federal Congress. They believed that ALL ... money. Since the Federal Congress was the only legislative ... Control to the Federal Reserve Instead of the Constitutional
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/billions.htm
================================================
"We need everybody's brain power, we need solutions!"
"WE ARE APT TO SHUT OUR EYES AGAINST A PAINFUL TRUTH...
FOR MY PART, I AM WILLING TO KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH;
TO KNOW THE WORST; AND TO PROVIDE FOR IT."
---- Patrick Henry
Message Board by American Patriot Friends Network [APFN]
