IT'S NOT WHAT WE KNOW, IT'S WHAT WE DON'T KNOW!

IT'S NOT WHAT WE KNOW, IT'S WHAT WE DON'T KNOW!

WACO...

Subject: Re: Waco Documentary Is A Hoax
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:20:17 -0700
From: Gary Hunt
Organization: Outpost of Freedom
To: APFN@netbox.com
CC: APFN AUTO RESPONDER , Judiciary@mail.house.gov

Regarding Carol Valentine's post, "Waco Documentary Is A Hoax",
Valentine has, desperately, attempted to maintain the failed position
taken by Linda Thompson years ago. What "Waco, The Rules of Engagement"
does is bring forward more evidence which supports what was believed by
many and supported by little credible evidence, but with statements made
in interviews by some of the Davidians.

It is, indeed, unfortunate that the position Valentine and Thompson
hold requires that some of the Davidians be government agents. This
claim was made before trial, and their conjecture was that some (named)
would walk. That the trial was an effort to protect their 'cover'. Those
named prior to trial are still in prison. Quiet a duty to 'perform' for
their 'employer', if the conjecture is correct.

Instead, Valentine and Thompson attempt to limit the possibilities
that the evidence supports. They ignore what other circumstances might
exist, especially with regard to the CS gas. WTROE does not say that the
government didn't murder any of the Davidians. It does present
information, and evidence that supports some of the misdeeds. It does
not speculate to the extent that Thompson's "Waco, The Big Lie" did.
Most of what was presented in that video has failed, from the beginning,
to be supported by any credible evidence.

Those who would prefer to discuss the issues and attempt to determine
what really happened during those fifty-one days might also like to look
at both sides. For the daily reports that were first published by APFN,
during the siege, go to:
http://www.illusions.com/opf/wacoind.htm

Gary Hunt, Outpost of Freedom mailto:opf@illusions.com
http://www.illusions.com/opf & http://www.committee.org
Maillist:
http://www.illusions.com:8181/guest/RemoteListSummary/OutPostofFreedom

[APFN NOTE: APFN REPORTED EVERY DAY OF THE SIEGE -- From the very first
day contacting my former wife and her husband. At the time they owned
Airport Marina on Lake Waco. Also my former brother in law lived in
Axtel, Texas (Near Mt. Carmel) - Gary Hunt started filing reports
to APFN about March 7th or 8th 1993. Hunt's reports were one of several
sources of information filed with APFN. I had been to Waco several times
prior to the siege and had several sources from locals. Additionally, I
have visited Waco in Oct. of 1994 and interviewed and taped many of the
Davidians. I also spent the day with Roger, David Koresh's half
Brother. Roger is years younger. Roger, under instructions from David
Left Mt. Carmel two before the Feb. 28 siege. He and I spent about five
hours at Mt. Carmel walking around, taking about the events and
his relationship with David (Vernon Howell). Much of that interview
was taped. Roger, had just returned from Calif. Shortly after
April 19, 1993, he was sent to Betty Ford's Hospital. Was there
for about 6/mo's. He meet a girl, went to Santa Cruz, Calif. No one
from the major media had interviewed Roger. I will publish more
about this latter. //klv// APFN@netbox.com

[SNIP]
The most startling revelation in Waco: The Rules of Engagement is
that government personnel apparently fired automatic weapons into
Mount Carmel during the FBI's assault, deterring the Davidians from
escaping the deathtrap their home had become. Two professional
analyses of infrared footage shot by a government plane during the
assault identified several instances of machine-gun fire coming
from the outside. As the movie reminds us, the FBI repeatedly
bragged that it did not fire a single round at Waco--an assertion
that was not challenged during the congressional hearings.
[SNIP]

[APFN NOTE] What was not revealed in WROE is the questioning of
Gen. Janet Reno by Congressmen Sony Bony about the use of CS gas.
Nor the Military saying they were lied to by the BATF/FBI about drugs
being involved. The Military could not of provided or driven the tanks
or any other Military assets without this lie. The congressional hearing
results did nothing about this abuse of "The Rule of Law". I also know,
that the Delta Force was on stand-by to due a "Jump-In". They were
in a high state of readiness. I interviewed one of these persons directly.

=======================================================================
Subject: "WacoMuseum" Is A Hoax
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:26:56 -0500
From: Carol Moore
To: APFN@netbox.com

Real-To: Carol Moore

Since Carol Valentine is starting up her campaign of
lies and insults against the Davidian survivors, I thought
I'd dig out two of my old replies that cover the full range
of inaccuracies and fraud in her analysis, including ones
not mentioned in her recent post here. (With a few changes
or clarifications made this morning.) For accurate info on
federal agents crimes at Waco go to
http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/davidian-massacre.html
CarolMoore@kreative.net
--------------
>From December 1997:
Waco Museum Web Site?? Hoax Website?

I saw these postings and thought I'd share analysis with you
I did recently of Carol Valentine's "Waco Museum" on a couple of
newsgroups. After much dogging by myself and other posters, Ms.
Valentine finally revealed what her theories are, instead of hiding
behind the assertion "I'm just reporting the facts." (I'm quite
sure she's twisted her facts to fit her theories.)

I won't bother to repeat or contest all the theories she advances.
I don't generally bother to debunk most conspiracy theories-not unless
they are used to defame, scapegoat, abuse or blame innocent people,
like the Davidian victims. Below are my replies to Ms. Valentine's post:

>On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 06:29:11 GMT, in
>alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater SkyWriter@Public-Action.com
>(Carol Valentine) wrote:

>4. There is good reason to believe that more than six Davidians were
>killed on the first day.

Moore: As the "Inside Mt. Carmel" video taken by Davidians during the
siege and send out to the FBI proved, all of the children were alive
and healthy as of March 28 and all but one of the mothers were alive
on either March 8 or 28. (The one mother not seen on video, Michelle
Jones Thibodeau, was very camera shy; in the "California Sermon"
video tape she is seen looking away very quickly as soon as the camera
pans onto her.)

So why has Valentine been promoting her web page saying, "See what
they did to the Mothers and Children"?? As if something was done to
them before the fire? Why does she go into graphic, gory details about
how some mothers and children died way before the fire-but obviously
after March 8 or March 28-unless she has some credible theory?

Ms. Valeninte has ignored my and others' comments that the various
rates of decomposition of the bodies probably are due to differing
exposures to fire (some were more covered with concrete and other
debris, and the fact that those inside the concrete room were not
recovered for more than a week.

And what other explanation can Valentine have for deaths after March
8 or March 28 except that a) the survivors are government agents who
killed them-or b)the survivors are covering up that fed agents got in
and killed them. If you won't come up with a theory and provide
credible evidence-and not more phony autopsy analysis--you are walking
on very thin moral and legal ice.

I repeat-if Valentine can't come up with a credible theory with
Credible evidence she should shut down the sections of her web page
where she makes fraudulent charges about how the women, children and
others died and stop making her grizzly reputation on the bodies of
these poor dead people.

>7. The Davidian population was salted with undercover agents, before
>and during the siege. Who walked, who died, who was prosecuted, who
>went free, who disappeared, who is in jail--get all that sorted out,
>and we get to the tough questions. Who were the agents? Are any of the
>current "Davidians" just government decoys? (decoy: noun, an
>artificial bird or animal, or sometimes a trained live one, used to
>lure game to a >place where it can be shot.-- Webster's New World
>Dictionary, Second >College Edition, 1970. )

Moore: Why is it Ms. Valentine never mentions the KNOWN agents,
informants, cooperators? Does she even know who they are??

They included: several BATF agents across the street and BATF agent
Robert Rodriquez who visited several times, including 2/28.97; Davidian
Donald Bunds who was captured as he tried to return to Mount Carmel
2/28/93 and gave BATF a lot of information-of course, he told them so
may wild stories they didn't call him at then trial; Kathryn Schroeder
who left during the siege and prosecutors bullied into testifying at
trial.

Valentine obviously would be eager for the press or government to
interview the Davidian prisoners and survivors to find out if they are
government agents. But I've never seem Valentine mention putting BATF
and FBI agents under oath to find out what crimes they committed!

If I was a Davidian I would have long ago issued a statement
Denouncing Carol Valentine for inferring or asserting various Davidians
Were government agents or dupes. However, they only sigh in disgust
When they hear her accusations and state that God will judge Ms.
Valentine.
>8. The Davidians were tortured for almost two months with sleep
>deprivation, horror, deaths of family and friends, and so forth. As
>they were released from Mt. Carmel, the were "interviewed" by the
>"Hostage Rescue Team", the Special Operations-trained death squad of
>the FBI. If they were treated kindly and not threatened at this point,
>I'm a fool: maybe puppies are born with diapers.

Moore: Fire survivors were arrested by the FBI but *interviewed* by
Texas Rangers. Get your facts straight. The rest of the paragraph
makes no sense at all.

>9. The tank and CS attack were not an attempt to drive the Davidians
>out. They were a cover to confuse the real time and circumstances of
>the deaths.

Moore: FBI agents might have preferred the Davidians stay inside, but
If Davidians had started running out the *front* door, the FBI would
Have had a lot of explaining to do if they'd shot them on TV. And nine
Did walk out after the fire without being shot. Or is their survival
Prima facie evidence they are all government agents-including the 16
year old girl who was severely injured?

And why is it that Valentine never mentions the possibility FBI
Agents were driven by revenge for the death of 4 BATF agents? Or
driven by the desire to destroy the bullet hole evidence in the
building of BATF murders of five Davidians on 2/28? Those were not
sufficient reasons for federal agents to destroy Mount Carmel? Why
does Valentine need some wild and woolly theory??

>12. The concrete room was marked for demolition under cover of the
>fire, but the demolition failed. Regardless of obvious evidence to
>the contrary, the cover story of the "bunker collapse" was used to
>explain many deaths. The evidence in the Museum blew a hole in the
>cover story.
>13. A small hole, approximately the size of a manhole cover, was
>blown in the ceiling of the concrete room. It is not credible that
>10-12 people could die of blunt force trauma/suffocation from burial
>by the small amount of debris from this hole.

Moore: Although even the Ramsey Clark law suit (under influence of
Gordon Novel) claims the feds blew a hole in top of the concrete room,
I'm skeptical about that. The falling tower could have made a hole.
There were certainly enough ammo and other explosions inside the room
for the couple hours it continued to burn--even after the rest of the
building was gone. A couple hundred pounds of concrete fell down from
inside the ceiling either before the fire from tank action or during
the fire from the four story tower falling on its roof. Hasn't
Valentine looked at the FBI photos of concrete-type debris inside the
room? Why are these less credible than other FBI photos Valentine uses as
evidence?

>14. The fire on April 19 lasted approximately 40-45 minutes. Yet many
>of the bodies showed more heat damage than could be expected from a
>short duration house fire.

Moore: Obviously, "researcher" Valentine hasn't watched the full CNN
footage of the fire, including how the fire in the concrete room kept
burning and exploding for a good hour and a half after the rest of the
building was gone. Ms. Valentine surely knows the Davidians stored tens
of thousands of rounds of ammo and several pounds of stored black powder.

The fact that six Davidians died 2/28/97 and 76 died April 19, 1997
is more than sufficient reason to charge the government with terrible
crimes. Coming up with some wacky theory involving long dead bodies
and Davidian agents and dupes distracts from the real crimes and blames
the victims.

One or more of the Davidian survivors may yet get fed enough up with
Ms. Carol Valentine's attacks to sue her for libel, slander and
defamation.

Like Georgian Richard Jewell, none of the Davidian survivors have
sought the public limelight, except in defense of the press and
government's attacking them. But it's not the press and government
attacking them now-it's Carol Valentine!!
------------------------------------------
The below is a response to an insulting rhyme Ms. Valentine wrote
and posted about the Davidians and then refused to admit authorship of.
--------
FROM JANUARY 1998
VALENTINE CALLS DOZENS OF DAVIDIANS AND FAMILY MEMBERS LIARS

MORE:
http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com/files/New-Files/981231/whyWaco.txt